Diversity in Fandom (We Haz It)

[booksomewench]

For a WorldCon presentation from verb_noire, karnythia is putting together a "faces of fandom" sort of slide show to demonstrate just how diverse fandom is and why representation is so important. If you're willing to be included, check out her post.

Once again, verb_noire is a new press dedicated to publishing SF/F work with PoC and queer protagonists.

(Stolen from rm and reposted with permission.)

EDIT: send pics/link to the LJ community name listed above at gmail dot com.

Comments

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

Pay no attention to the class conflict behind the curtain...

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

Please, do elucidate. I am fascinated by your reading of class and fandom, particularly the intersection of race and class.

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

That has almost nothing to do with what I said.

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

I am trying to understand what you meant in the contect of my post.

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

That this behavior demonstrates an ignorance of class, and perpetuates distractions from addressing serious matters in society. It is a consequence of propaganda, and a furtherance of it.

Things I did not say:

* Race is unimportant

* Gender/sex is unimportant

* Class is more important than Race/Sex/Class

* X person had malicious intent

* X person must include class in their list of very special topics

* I am poor/ of lower class status

etc.

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

That this behavior demonstrates an ignorance of class, and perpetuates distractions from addressing serious matters in society

I would heartily disagree. The perception is STILL that fandom is made up of white, (middle-class, true) men. Female fans and fans of color (and even sometimes GLBTQ fans) often feel alienated or unwelcome because they think they'll to be the only female/not-white face in the crowd. I'm also confused at how you can say "collecting pictures of fans for the purposes of demonstrating the diversity of fandom 'perpetuates distractions from addressing serious matters in society'" and yet still say that you did not say that "race is unimportant."

How is highlighting diversity distracting from serious matters? Especially since this idea springs from the Race Fail '09 debacle. If this is not a 'serious matter,' what is?

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

You asked for clarification. I clarified. You've shown you still don't understand what I'm talking about, which is why I was disinclined to elaborate earlier.

You can talk about symptoms all day long. It won't convince me you understand disease.

I don't think it is a coincidence that you have been encouraged to be self-righteous about symptoms to the exclusion of being able to understand disease.

That I am concerned about disease does not mean I don't care about symptoms.

There are things liberals cannot understand. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest as to which of us is more self-righteous, but the irony of you implicitly accusing me of having not examined my own privilege when I'm accusing you and others of not being able to conceive of a certain set of problems should have occurred to you.

You may want a better world, but you're not heading for one. You're just heading for a -different- world which benefits you personally. It so happens that a finer world would benefit almost everyone, but you aren't allowed to want that.

That your total inability to understand your interlocutor's positions (and, by extension, your inability to understand, say, Charlie Stross' position in Racefail) ought to bother you. It doesn't, so I'm not going to waste my time any further.

Since you've now explicitly brought up Racefail, you should feel free to read my longer post on the subject. I'm not going to say any more on it here.

[londo.livejournal.com]

I am really intensely bothered by the phrase "There are things liberals cannot understand." This seems like a weak cop-out that actually reads "I am not very good at getting my point across."

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

If $concept includes the belief that X and Y are what really matters in $situation, then it is reasonable to suggest $concept is an impediment to understanding Z is important to $situation. Always talking about X and Y, and never mentioning Z, would seem to support this.

I am not obliged to argue with someone who can't or won't grasp my position, and has concluded ahead of time that "my ass is showing."

I have, I feel, been more than courteous in this present discussion.

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

has concluded ahead of time that "my ass is showing."

Have you ever given thought to the possibility that fewer of your arguments would be as bitter if you stopped assigning feelings, thoughts, and/or motivations to your opponents? I didn't enter the conversation with that attitude and didn't actually feel you derserved it until the above comment.

Now, however, please reference the above icon.

I am not obliged to argue with someone who can't or won't grasp my position

For the first time in this discussion, I think we've found something that we can both whole-heartedly agree on.

hypocracy, you has it.

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

Yeah... because I totally accused someone of saying something they explicitly stated that they didn't state or intend.

So, what is it... I'm a liar, or a simpleton? (He said, rhetorically.)

As for 'reading thoughts and motivations' (or rather, emotions), why the hell do you use icons again? To convey tone?

Well gee, there I go assuming that your denotation of tone was denoting tone.

Post-facto justifications and further comments in this thread will go unread.

Have fun rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

While you're at it, be sure to fight the injustice that is the prevalence of white people on the internet without even thinking about the word "class." (Thinking about class would be illiberal, and downright un-American.)

[londo.livejournal.com]

Sure, you're not obliged to argue with anyone over anything, but I find the "you don't understand this, and you never will" position to be sort of ... astoundingly egotistical, and slightly more useless.

"You are incapable of understanding my position" seems to show up alongside "but my position is morally superior" a lot. And then there's this implication that "you should just trust me and arrange the world like I think it should be, since you'll never understand what I'm saying but I'm more right." And that strikes me as vaguely fascist, which is weird, because you're about the last person I'd expect to say anything remotely fascistlike.

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

I was asked to explain. I wasn't asked to persuade or convince.

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

Your clarification was a statement. Not an explanation, but a statement. Compounding that statement with "If you don't understand, I'm not going to tell you" shows me that further discussion with you, at least on this medium, is fruitless. No, I am not understanding your point in that you've given me nothing other than a broad statement in one comment and then a list of reasons why I am wrong in another to work with.

However, as this is a subject that is important to me, I would like to continue this conversation in person. Perhaps your arguments will become clearer when we are face to face.

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

Yes, I restated my position more clearly. That seems like a pretty good explanation to me.

I am not interested in discussing this point further, in any medium, but that doesn't necessarily mean I won't reply to direct inquiry.

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

here is a black woman making a similar point and here are some statistics/demographics.

You would, I think, be up in arms if everyone ignored (say) sex/gender and just talked about class and race, or if people only could conceive of sex/gender and class.

[elenuial.livejournal.com]

:)

Are you going to send in a pic?

I feel like I should, but I'm laaaaaaaazy.

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

Several, actually. :-)

C'mon...doo eet.

[elenuial.livejournal.com]

But... I don't have any good pictures, none of them show my good side, what if people think I'm ugly, what if I think I'm ugly, I don't have time to take new pictures, what would I wear anyways... ARGH!

This is why nobody wants to take me to the prom. :(

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

Cause you're a spaz?

[elenuial.livejournal.com]

But... I put out and you don't even have to pay for the lobster I'm such a good dancer!

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

That's what I read on the restroom wall. ~_^

[londo.livejournal.com]

You're fat.

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

Great. Now he's going to start crying all over my LJ.

Thanks.