Completely forgot about this

[booksomewench]

ddrpolaris reminded me:

For class, we're supposed to ask people what masculinity is to them, what it means, or how they define masculinity. We're supposed to get different view points on the subject, so if people want to comment on what they think masculinity is or how to define it, I'd appreciate it.

Send your friends over to answer, too!

EDIT: How do you perform masculinity? Or, how do you show that you are male? What are some ways society expects you to act to be "a real man"? (People who use that phrase in earnest should be shot). Are there ways you feel you fall short of the "idea masculinity" as espoused by American cultural norms? How does that make you feel? Hell, as guys, are you allowed to discuss your feelings? ~_^

Comments

[icanwritewords.livejournal.com]

Am I allowed to just use your comments as my answers? I think I have the discussion section 2 days before you - Fern would never know!

[shadowravyn.livejournal.com]

This is for class tonight. But I won't tell...as long as you answer!

[icanwritewords.livejournal.com]

Oh, right. Ours was technically due two days ago, but we got derailed before we got to the discussion...

Masculinity is a construction based around a supremely wide set of cultural and philosophical values! It is a highly restrictive set of norms that, in the united states, creates a dialectic of conflict and suppression, and is probably the driving force behind the horrible selfish capitalistic bullshit that has done such wonderful things to the economy. Also by virtue of its broadness, "masculine" and "feminine" mean very little; though they may bring up strong images and emotions, those will vary too much between people to be truly quantifiable.

How's that for a useless answer?

[quish.livejournal.com]

I'm in your class. I'm Laura, the annoying girl who did the precis on Bamberg.

[icanwritewords.livejournal.com]

Is your use of "annoying" a marker of a learned and gendered tact of downplaying your own attributes?

This be James. The boy. You were in my house!

[quish.livejournal.com]

Is your use of "the boy" your way of accentuating your gender as your primary attribute? :-p

And your house is awesome.

[icanwritewords.livejournal.com]

In regards to what makes me unique among the makeup of that class, yes.

[trillianekua.livejournal.com]

Masculinity is the physical traits which result from the expression of testosterone (and other such hormones, maybe?).

[thevirtualjim.livejournal.com]

I have been male my whole life, and I have no clue what masculinity really means. I assume its just all the behaviors that a society decides is what is appropriate for men to do.

[neuromancerzss.livejournal.com]

GIANT COCK!

In a serious sense, it really only matters to me when I'm trying to fulfill what I think someone else's interpretation of masculinity is. Any other positive trait I would find just as desired in a women as a man.

Western Civilization: Judeochristian religion, Roman Law, Greek Philosophy

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

Being masculine is, for a man, living in accordance with God's plan as set out in the Bible, which is to be literally interpreted. I believe a useful secular source for this worldview is the Handmaid's Tale. Men are expected to be tough, brave, and when God wishes it, violent.

Re: Western Civilization: Judeochristian religion, Roman Law, Greek Philosophy

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

footnote: The fundamentalist movement was invented in ~1930, and so the values it espouses are normative to 1930's wife beaters, as opposed to ancient wife beaters.

[ddrpolaris.livejournal.com]

Did you read the articles yet? The article with the two modes of American masculinity in the early 20th century are hilariously offensive. The genteel patriarch of the south as an embodiment of liberty and the entrepreneurial craftsman of the north as an embodiment of equality especially. Because when I think of bastions of liberty, I think of slave-owning pseudo-aristocracy. pssht.

[dontcallmemolly.livejournal.com]

Broad shoulders, scruffy beard, deep, penetrating eyes, big hands, maybe a cowboy hat...

I think I need a glass of water.

[inertiacreepies.livejournal.com]

screw the water.. i need gin after that.

tongue half-in-cheek...

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

I show that I am a man by not wearing a dress or skirt or having long hair or wearing makeup or discussing my feelings.

I've failed by wearing a skirt* and having long hair and by occasionally discussing my feelings.

* no, I don't mean a kilt; my pants were wet and no alternative pants were available. Long time ago.

[rgfgompei.livejournal.com]

When I think of "masculine" traits I think of traits that are increased by testosterone, though I don't actually equate "masculinity" to "testosteronized." I was interested to note that several of the traits that dontcallmemolly mentioned are indicative of high testosteronization (in utero, puberty, or serum, depending on the trait), those being broad shoulders, scruffy beard, deep eyes (not sure about penetrating) and big hands. These things are not socially constructed, but are based on a hormone that occurs in higher concentrations in men than women throughout the human race. However it is interesting to note the differences that culture and ecology has on testosterone. For example, men in modern western cultures have far higher serum testosterone levels than men in modern hunter-gatherer societies. Also interesting, though even more unrelated, a man's testosterone drops when he gets married, drops further when he has children, and increases again if he gets a divorce. Sorry, I didn't actually answer your question. I don't think that my idea of "masculinity" is coherent enough to be put into words, though clearly I have one or your question would have been meaningless. I do know I sometimes use that incoherence to my own amusement, as when I tell mildly homophobic (and I do mean fear, not hate) men that I think its really manly to be so secure with your masculinity that you are comfortable dressing as a woman or flirting with other men. That always gets them flustered, and hopefully it also gets them thinking.

[ladyscience.livejournal.com]

The first word that pops into my head when I hear masculine is assertive.

[jendaby.livejournal.com]

I guess the traits that are supposed to be masculine are large defined muscles, a strong jaw, and never admitting that you cry? Looking rugged and tackling heavy manual chores? Being stubborn and bullheaded and refusing to ever back down from a fight? Sweaty?

I think that's what people mean when they say masculine, anyway.
Whereas feminine would be more elegant and cool and sweet-smelling and polite...I guess. It all sounds very silly when you try to break it down.

[goddess-of-ice.livejournal.com]

I guess for most people, masculinity would be described as large, assertive, aggressive, strong, etc. But for me, personally, a "real man" is the one who is not afraid to show their "feminine" traits. ^_^

[littleamazon.livejournal.com]

There's the definitions that seem to be operating, and there's the definitions that make sense.

My first thought is strength and courage... similar to the assertiveness that someone else mentioned. "Strength" and "courage" can both be physical, and large muscles are a "masculine" trait, but more important is integrity and personal courage, particularly in the face of adversity.... a willingness to be your own man. Not that women are supposed to *not have* strength and courage (except, presumably, when letting a man be strong for you, did I just type that ow my eyes), but that femininity does not require either.

The working definition seems to be "not a woman, not a fag" (which is a quote from somewhere, but I can't recall the source). Which isn't very useful, as it seems to require proving a negative.

I like this article - makes for some interesting thinking on the changing shape of masculinity.

[neuromancerzss.livejournal.com]

Seems like somewhere in there, perhaps the first line, he confuses manliness with "good masculinity". Many of the traits he assigns to false manliness are the consequence of his good traits taken down negative paths, often by people who think they are right. A man has strength of will when his opinions are right, but is willful when they are not; he is courageous when he follows a path that should be followed, but audacious when he errs. I don't believe manliness is defined by being right in the end. Manliness is the more neutral traits that both those views stem from. It may be the catalyst that carries the world, but whether it's forward or backward depends on the ethics of the men in question.

[littleamazon.livejournal.com]

Making a vice of a virtue is time-honored tradition, granted, but I don't think being right in the end is the criterion distinguishing gentlemanly behavior from "false manliness". Rather, (especially in light of the first article I linked), it seems to be whether an individual can correct themselves - can observe the consequences of their actions and fix themselves to stay on the "right path", rather than proceeding bull-headedly on in pursuit of what they *want* the "right path" to be. It requires a combination of strength, insight, and humility to to this - the "false manliness" requires only the strength.

[neuromancerzss.livejournal.com]

Sure, being a good man involves insight and humility, but I don't believe those traits are inherent to masculinity. Perhaps the word "gentleman" has inherently positive connotations which imply the good versions, but I don't feel that manliness has the same sense of implied goodness.

One of the traits I think most would think of when questioned about manliness is a willingness to enter into conflict. Inherent in that however is that someone's losing, which make valuations of goodness rather tricky. Was Julius Caesar manly to the Romans, but a picture of false manliness in the eyes of the Gauls, or was he just possessed of a neutral manliness that is described as either a strong will or willfulness depending on the observer?

brain breakage:

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

By the way... "Gender theory and The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan"

[verrucaria.livejournal.com]

Well, biologically, "masculinity" is correlated with possessing a Y chromosome, though glandular problems, etc., could change things up a little bit.

And, yes, I do think that certain character, etc., traits may be "naturally" more masculine than feminine, based on biology. And, no, I can't point any out at the moment. If nothing else, I'm amused that although societies often consider different qualities to be masculine or feminine, they all do tend to assign different gender roles to the sexes.

Yes, of course society has a profound effect on us. But we are, by nature, a social animal. You can't have a moderately well-adjusted human without society. But of course society evolves much faster than we do. So you could ask what the most natural form of society

Experiments on at least one species of monkeys have shown that mothers in that species don't know how to "mother" if they don't get to see it done. (Granted, those monkeys were raised totally without social interaction, so they were profoundly messed up. But still, maternal "instinct" isn't quite an instinct. But without mothering, you be able to pass your genes onto the next generation, and your lineage would die out. Social learning is "biologically" necessary for you.)

Anyway, I have no idea where I was going anymore! Excuse my rant.

[knottytree.livejournal.com]

Hm - what is "masculine"....

I'd say when I think 'masculine', if I'm thinking of the physical: broad shoulders, facial hair, squarer jaw-line, more muscular and more muscular definition. If I'm thinking of the non-physical: brash, self-contained/reliant, coercive, gambler/risk-taker.

This is what comes to mind. I don't count these as being exclusively male, just what I think of when I think of 'masculine'. Everyone, male or female, has some masculine and feminine traits (as well as some that I consider to be neutral/human traits).

[addictivish.livejournal.com]

I don't generally classify people as "masculine, but I would classify masculinity as logical, decisive, structured, inflexible, etc. Or at least, so says astrology, which is pretty much the definition I stick with.

I'm aware this really sends a bad image to feminism (scatterbrained, flexible, emotional, and what have you) -- which is exactly why I hardly use the term when describing a person.

[mesmerising.livejournal.com]

I think the concept of 'masculinity', as a gender role, is a social construct defined by a particular set of values and norms of a particular society. From a evolutionary perspective, it can be argued that 'masculinity' represents the attributes that allows a male to survive and pass on his genes. In a way, I think these ideals have manifested themselves into society, and in particular, Western society. If you look at other cultures, especially those that are matriarchal (and I'm talking about real cultures here, as opposed to BJT yay-ness XD), you can see that what Western minds think about 'masculinity' isn't a feature prevalent in the males. Then there are places like Japan, where the set of values and norms shift yet again, creating an entirely different concept of what masculinity is and should be.

A lot more can be said (with specific examples, etc, etc), but those are my thoughts in a nutshell. Hope it helps, and have fun with the project! :D

[londo.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever in my life said to myself "I should work on being more masculine" in any remotely serious sort of way.